Permission to Fail

Show Notes

To find out more about Catherine's courses and life coaching offers, or simply to connect with her, please go to her website https://www.catherinegillard.com

Sue's Book Shadow Gifts: Finding Beauty in the Darkness  can be purchased here.

Transcript

CATHERINE:

All right! Welcome, everyone!

SUE:

We're back.

CATHERINE:

Yup. Here we are, season two and we are in episode four. I'm your host, Catherine. I'm sitting here with Val and Tracy and Sue.

SUE:

Hello.

CATHERINE:

We are the puzzlers. We are so excited about this podcast series about: giving permission to.... What a gift we could give ourselves right? So this one is about permission to fail, make mistakes, be messy or imperfect. And this is going to be a life changing conversation. So let's get going.

SUE:

Change my life.

TRACY:

Yeah.

CATHERINE:

Just as an intro and a bit of connection--- I love making connects-- I'm just wired that way- so even though we didn't fully plan the order of these episodes, they kind of just fell, I feel like they are following like an order and connecting for me. So that concept that we just talked about in terms of rest and the other one about struggles, feel really linked to the concept of failure for me. When I coach, it's about roots based healing and understanding why we have certain bents towards body responses or beliefs. AND.. learning strategies for rest.. for me ... only worked if I got to the root cause of why it was hard to rest. And for me, my anxiety of failing-- that elusive--It doesn't matter how much you get right--because you're only one step away from being wrong --was a piece of what was leading me. I had to figure out why failing felt unsafe before I could stop my busy badge. So this concept of success and failure is often really revelatory for many of us to understand what's going on inside of us, what we've stored as success or celebrated, or failure or shame.And that's where we can get great victory, knowing what needs to change in our beliefs, in our body and in our brain... so we can gain (that) victory. Redefining.

VAL:

That really connects with rest.

CATHERINE:

Yeah, totally. And actually, this concept is part of my surviving to thriving with lasting change course that I wrote....and, had the wonderful Nicole Arnt, our producer, helping me in creating the videos and stuff. So I run that three times a year. It's really cool, helps people understand that.. whole, you know, getting out of survival mode loops. Some people call it striving to thriving .. so struggle to strength. (Anyhow)That's where we're headed today. I'm actually really excited. It just kind of fell into my lap to talk about this one. So thanks ladies. All right. Let's dive in. Why is it so hard to be imperfect, make mistakes or fail?

SUE:

Talk about getting real about your struggles. Continue, Catherine.

LAUGHTER.

CATHERINE:

Why is it so hard? Just a why before you even share? Because we'll go there in a sec. WHY?

VAL:

Yeah, like I think we all like. It just sucks. It sucks to fail, right? Like it's embarrassing. It's painful. It makes you feel less then. And it makes you feel small, and it challenges your idea of your own worth.

SUE:

Worth. Big one. Yeah. Yeah.

TRACY:

And I find it ties back to what I was saying in a previous episode about Limitlessness. And I think some of it's because at the core we listen to that lie of the garden. You can be as God. So like you don't have limits. You could be perfect. All of those kind of things and we can't. And that's the freedom of it too.

SUE:

Yeah I think failure is, is just a big word. And until you and I know we're going to get into this, I don't want to give it all away. But until you kind of reframe what failure means and what potential it has, it feels like a, like the end of the road: failure. Done. No way out. Like I've hit bottom. Whatever I was trying to do is not going to happen now. And it's... That's it. It feels so final.

CATHERINE:

Right?

SUE:

Failure feels final to me. It's a it's that kind of a big word. Huge stop sign.

CATHERINE:

Weighty.

SUE:

Weighty. SO.

CATHERINE:

Yeah, we were joking before we started this episode. So listening in, you know, not sure to make the joke, but for a lot of us, failure is like an f word. Like a bad word, right? And, in this episode, we hope to go from failure to a bigger, better word. Freedom.

VAL:

Yeah. BIG F.

CATHERINE:

So. Yeah. I was contemplating this myself. Besides, just like facts that I've had in the past and I actually was thinking about like failure wasn't part of our original design. What do you think of that? Right. Like we weren't actually made to fail in the garden. Everything was perfect.

VAL:

Yeah. So it goes against our natural inclination that that's why it's so painful.

SUE:

What we were born to live in to what we were born.

VAL:

Anything that goes against what we are born to live into is painful.

CATHERINE:

We were meant to thrive. We weren't meant to feel failure. Right. And so what's connected at the roots is usually like our unmet needs. Right. Because because we live in an imperfect world, we're leaning in to try to meet the needs of worth and value and, you know, get away from threat and fear and shame and all those pieces. But amazingly, in the Bible, it is full of imperfect lives, right? Messy, imperfect, imperfect people just like us ...with failures. So healing is actually the breaking of that generational dysfunction. Sometimes it's the patterns and loops of pain, and things that we get stuck in, in fear. So the hope for this session as we process is actually each of us would feel lighter and freer. So I'm excited. Yeah.

All right. Let's get real, ladies. Let's get real real quick. What failures or mistakes or imperfections stand out for you from your life? What makes them stand out and what made them hard? And I just want to start with this little thought. This is vulnerable. This is authentic. So back to your place where you talked about the struggle Sue. So important that we need to have this space be safe. No judgment. Right. Each of our struggles are our own. Each of our quote unquote failures are our own. And so in this place, we need to have grace. It's a grace space for you as well, listeners, cause shame dies where stories are told in safe places. Shame is actually disconnection. Disconnection from who were meant to be. Our identity. From God, from others. People often think because of my background and certifications and my work in trauma, everything I do with people is about huge dramatic things. And sometimes it is.

But trauma is so much more pervasive than that. We've all experienced deep wounds of the heart that affect how we see ourself, others, and God. And that is essentially what trauma is, something that happens inside of us because something we've experienced and it disconnects our sense of safety or community. So in honesty, as we start today, all of us have experienced heart wounds, maybe not ones that had huge terror and horror and powerlessness, but that created a wound and lies. That's where we're headed today. So as we share, I just want to start- both for you, the listener and for us as a team- that to be safe here, we need to be authentic and share from the truth of our life with compassion for both ourselves and each other. And listening- not to solve or fix or tell what we would do- but to listen with courage and say thank you for being real.

SUE:

Yeah. Thank you.

VAL:

That's invaluable.

CATHERINE:

So let me ask that question again. What failures mistakes or imperfections stand out for you? And what made it hard?

VAL:

Well you're right. This is a question that no one really wants to answer. To a close friend, let alone on a podcast.

CATHERINE:

(whispers to listeners) WE TRUST YOU.

VAL:

But, I would say for me, I have a bit of a different take on this now, but I would say that having anxiety and worry was always something that made me feel like I was failing. Failing my family. Failing God. Because I should be stronger than that. Failing myself and my, my own potential. But another example, even now as I'm hitting more midlife, I can see why people go through a midlife crisis. I find myself looking back on choices that I've made or didn't make. And I think, oh, man, I should have done that differently.

You know, like, I should have maybe finished my degree instead of leaving early along a career path, and or I should have banked more money when we were younger. My husband, I were like tree huggers living off love. I was granola girl, and we weren't thinking ahead. So these things are kind of regrets, but kind of failures of the past that I think if I had done things differently, things could look different now. Maybe more security, more safety, more success, you know? So.

CATHERINE:

Thanks for sharing that.

SUE:

Well, I've got one of those sort of capital F failure things that I'm.. I'd like to share, and I didn't know that I would, but I, I trust the people in this room so much. You guys really are a gift to me. And, this is something I've never really talked about publicly. Only very recently have I started speaking about it. And I'm only open to share about it because I've come across more and more women in the faith community, umm who share this sense...and I... I'm bonding with you right now. And, I want you to know that I can connect with you there. I can relate, and I think it's important that we get to talk about this within the faith community. The failure that I'm talking about is the breakdown of my first marriage and the resulting divorce. Huge within the church. I felt so much shame, for years because I held marriage in such a high regard. And I still do. Perhaps higher because I know the challenge that it is and how painful it is to lose. My parents had divorced before I became a follower of Christ, and I think I thought that my faith was enough to safeguard my marriage and I was quite shocked and devastated, frankly, to find out that that wasn't the case.

It took years of really good therapy, and a lot of prayer and pastoral counselling and great friends for me to accept that the end of our marriage was an "our failure", not a, "my failure". And there's a, there's a huge difference in that. I carried the whole weight of it myself for a long time. And while I still see it as a failure, it's one that I share. And if you're out there and this is resonating with you, I just want to encourage you, if you are in that incredibly unfortunate situation of walking through a divorce, please consider that truth carefully. I've spoken to so many women who carry, that personal failure. All by themselves. And this is a big topic and maybe something that we consider more in depth at another time.

CATHERINE:

Thank you, Sue, for saying that. Right. And I can hear even in your response, physically as well as, verbally that, you know, what you valued and held in high esteem was what God said and then it's such a struggle too right.. like in terms of our hopes and dreams. There's like multiplied losses in there, right?

TRACY:

Yeah, yeah.

CATHERINE:

Multiplied loss, multiplied losses. And even too, judgment too.. like if, like, you know, people don't know the whole of the story. And fortunately too this is that piece where shame dies if our story is told in safe places and yeah, we have sometimes not been safe for people.

SUE:

I'm so grateful for the chance. Like guys, I've never said it out loud. Never talked about it publicly. I mean, with friends publicly. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to feel something. Yeah. Just for me? Yeah. So. Thank you.

CATHERINE:

See, this is a freedom session.

SUE:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

CATHERINE:

That was. That was brave, right? We we want to give courage. Right? Yes. Encourage. Kindness. Encourage. We absolutely sometimes discourage. And you are sharing right from your heart. We want to encourage. Thank you. Anybody else?

TRACY:

Yeah. It's so rich like that. You know there's that pause there even in my own heart. Right. That space was sharing. I had to really wrestle with this question because my brain actually holds mistakes and failures in very different categories and different than most people would define failure. And probably the easiest way to explain this is with a little story. Is that okay. A quick run.

CATHERINE:

SURE. Yeah! that's fun.

TRACY:

So, I've maybe shared before, but my sisters were 10 to 15 years older than me, so one of my sisters moved to British Columbia, married, and moved out there when I was ten. So I spent some summers out there. So I was out with them the first summer after they were married. So Brent and Barb were newlyweds. And, you know, they're getting to know each other. And I happened to walk through the kitchen one day and I stubbed my toe, and I was just like, oh oh oh oh oh. Brent came running to me. I'm like 11, 12. And it's like, are you okay? Are you okay? And I said, yeah, like I just stepped my toe and he just went, what is it with you, Taylor girl... like you could have a severed limb and you're good, but if you stub your toe, there's all this intensity. And that's the best story picture I can provide for what failures and mistakes are like for me. Because failure, that sense. And I do echo what Val was saying, you know, you look back on your life and there are choices that I would make differently, but I really value. Brené Brown speaks of this again, too. Like, did I not do the best I knew to do then? And looking at those things and so I think failure when I look back on a lot of failure- Sue's air quotes -in my life is that I just see the grace of God like it was like more than I can control. The mistakes are harder for me because I think mistakes are things that I can still feel like I should be able to control. I should not make this little thing or a typo, right? Like, I so much of those little things. And we'll come to some of what that pain is in there. But then in terms of failure itself, as I reflect on that, my reflection on failure is not things that I have done. Although I would change some choices, it has been my failure not to do-- the failing not to. And the example that came, and there are other ones, and some of those would even come into my parenting choices, right? Like I failed not to something, but one that really kind of came to mind when I was in elementary school and upper levels I loved field hockey. Like I love field hockey, and a lot of people know field hockey, but it's, you know, team sport and we did really well. Competitive leagues. I hit high school and I they, you know, tryouts for the field hockey and I didn't go because no one was going. I failed to try out. And what that has just really come to recognize for me a phrase I just heard really recently was unconscious self betrayal.

So that I'm just even beginning to sit with. But that failing to do was an unconscious self betrayal. And so but that's years I've had a mark Twain quote on one of my vision boards that's my identity vision board. And he just said, 20 years from now, you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the ones you did. So throw off the bowline, sail from Safe Harbor... and it kind of goes on from there. But that 20 years from now, you'll regret what you didn't do. And that's often what shapes failure for me is the failure to do.

CATHERINE:

Wow. So good. Right. And it's so personal for each of us. And, yeah. Thank you for sharing, ladies.

VAL:

Even Tracy mentioning parenting. I think as moms we live with a lot of guilt of not doing enough or doing the wrong things, you know? So that's a big category too. I never thought of.

TRACY:

I've thought of it.

CATHERINE:

Such big pieces. Right. Like and, you know, regret. Is this like looking back and then again back tied to our last episode, you know, not being able to be present, to be honest, that's like living out of the past.. a huge piece. And I think for a lot of us is is exactly the concept that you're saying, Tracy is... should have to you can't won't like all those pieces are usually like flag words that say something's going on inside of our heart, right? So for me, a lot of pieces of my life people could define as failure, for sure.

And honestly, I think that I live with --is it-- is it my inside that saying it's a failure or is it, is it the outside that's saying it's a failure, right. So for some of me it was changing roles or positions, changing relationships, changing a vision and the feeling that I was unable to make things work and should be able to make it work.

Right. Not quitting. So I was committed to commitment. Right. And I thought that stopping was failure. Because love is patient. Love is kind. Love keeps no record of wrongs. And so I would keep trying at something, and feel like it was my mistake, over apologize, over own. And in retrospect, I actually learned that some of it was actually my mistake was to not say no or have boundaries.

I was in bondage. Actually, the opposite, right? In fear, identity and shame roots. So that's a little bit for me. But for you then how has the definition of failure or mistakes or imperfection kind of grown or morphed or developed for you? Has it remained constant or has it kind of changed for you as you've gone through life? TRACY:

I had a big change. I'm going to just jump in and follow from that. On the idea of mistakes, because it was so significant for me about a year and a half and-- it should of-- and it, you know, well should right We can think I like if I would think from my head, I wouldn't have thought of it this way, but it was like a huge light bulb going on that mistakes are not sin.

CATHERINE: Yes

TRACY:

Mistakes are mistakes. And I had a very, like I had a mistake that was literally black or white. And because of the operations manager Eve's travel company, the guys are buying aluminum, putting on houses. And I had a morning where this is more on the healed place of that, but I, I got a call from him and I'd had a typo, like literally he had white material and the job called for black. And what I recognized in that situation just, you know, this year was that I didn't fall into that same shame place. That cycle that can kind of come. And a year or so ago--when that "a mistake is not a sin" just really began to land. Some other little thing had happened. Nothing. Nothing major. And the little things are the things that can undo me.

You know, if it's huge, I've got it. I've got Grace, I've got God. If it's little, it can take over. Right. And but my nephew just just really just said, no problem. It was just a mistake. We all make them right. And he'd had to do, like, a run for some material and, like, change his schedule. And so just even living into the truth, another friend shares, like everything's figure- out -able

SUE:

yes. yes

TRACY:

Like you can figure this out. This isn't life and death, right? You know? Yeah. So mistakes are not sin. Just in their human experience, which comes back to who we are, not God.

VAL:

Right. I've also grown a lot in my perceptions of failure. Thank you Jesus. By the grace of God. Right. Especially in this aspect of anxiety and worry, I.. I now have much more compassion for myself. And it's amazing how much less of a burden, anxiety is when you take away the shame that can be linked to it.

CATHERINE:

Totally.

VAL:

An example is, when I had more anxiety and worry. And if you listen back on my story from the first season, my health wasn't great in general at that time, and I had a lot of sleep issues. It was really just awful. But I don't really experience that anymore. But (she winked) Every once in a while I will have a sleepless night. So a few months ago I had one of those sleepless nights and there was a lot going on. I was stressed, probably hormones had something to do with it. But I had a sleepless night. In the past if this happened, I would have like the inner dialogue. You know, I like, even in the night, like Sue was saying, the night talk so ugly. I should be able to sleep. I'm letting myself down. I should be able to get this anxiety under control. I should be able to rest in God. Oh, I know, I'm probably keeping my husband awake. That's not good for him. What about tomorrow? I'm going to be exhausted. I'm going to let people down and so on and so on. But a few months ago, when this happened, I quite honestly, I just left myself. I let myself off the hook. And I think self-compassion is is such a big deal. My inner dialogue went something like this instead.

Well, I'm human. I have weaknesses just like every other person. We are all trying our best to survive this life. And yes, this might impact my husband. And that's also part of our journeying together. And then I spent a bit of time getting curious instead. Instead of, like, shaming myself, I took that energy and got curious. You know what triggered this anxiety? Let's try to get to the root of this... God, what is it that that's at the root of this? What am I fearing? And just spending that time chatting with him, knowing that he loves me exactly as I am, and that he doesn't like to see me broken either? He doesn't like that and that he says, you know, I'm going to use that anxiety that you had last night for your good. And all of these things, it's like, wow, I've come a long way ladies.

SUE:

I love that. Yeah. That is such a rock solid example of what I would say. That's where my brain has gone too. I've just, I've had to recognize that in my sense of failure or going back to the, the larger topic that I addressed struggles. That's where I find God. When we've got it all together, we don't reach out for him the same way and we don't reach out for each other. So I mean..it was through my divorce that I, my faith became the strongest it's ever been, and I redefined failure. I learned so much about marriage through the breakdown of a marriage and what really matters.

Because when it's not happening, you know that it's crucial, right? It's like when we don't care or take care of ourselves physically and we lose our health. And then you go, I should have been eating properly. I should have been staying active. And it's it's when something's gone.

VAL:

It's a great example.

SUE:

You recognize its value. Right. And you recognize its importance. And so failure losing something can really bring about the importance of it. And so that's you know the opportunity to, to contemplate, to think I love that in the middle of the night you were able to turn your thoughts around. You're my hero.

VAL:

Not always the middle of the night Sue.. sometimes, you know, it's the next day.

SUE:

But in that example, in that example, it actually changed your night spins to something good. And, and that's, that's the key for failure, I think is being able to turn it into, you know, that good old learning experience guys. You know.

TRACY:

And I love that because what I hear you saying is the the gift of failure, which to me reflects the part of your question from last season, the gift of grief. Yeah. Like and God taking all of those things that we don't want or choose. And he brings us freedom from. But he's a good God. Yes. Who can always in anything say.. and here is my gift for you. That's right. Because he's always good.

SUE:

Oh, Tracy, that's my that's my whole book. Every chapter of Shadow Gifts deals with another beautiful thing I learned through grief, loss, failure, brokenness. I mean, it is where he. Where He reaches us. Yes. Because we reach out for Him and the people he put in our lives. So, thank you for that opportunity to say that, but that that's where I live these days. It really is.

CATHERINE:

I love this conversation. It's so good. Right? Because we actually can't learn and grow when we are in fear. So when we lean into compassion and curiosity, we actually can heal because that shame is this disconnection. So when we are actually able to be self compassionate, right, and know that our loving Father is compassionate towards us, he's not going, what do you like? Why can't you sleep well? What's wrong with you? Like that's you know. And he he is so caring. It's it's so beautiful. This conversation leaned into, where I wanted to head in terms of upside down concepts because so naturally, I think we've had to deconstruct our belief about what failure was, through failing. Right. And then come away and go, wait, what I always thought.... and that comes from what we've learned, what was celebrated, what was shamed.

You know, Tracy that mistake was so devastating because there was this disconnect like you, you were really not seen to be who you are in that person's response. Right. And so we've stored this, like, where am I safe to feel connected to my best self, and where am I safe to be connected? Because we are made for connection with God. So wonderful. As we talk about these concepts of upside down, the way that God works and we're deconstructing, there's this term in weightlifting where the you train to failure, right, where it breaks down so that it can actually build up again. And I think that that's the beauty of some of the things we've experienced, you know, actually leaned into understanding more, asking more questions, getting to the roots so that God can pull it out.

And it's beautiful because the Bible says in everything there's a season, a time to break down and time to build up. And I think that's what's happening inside of us. When God reframes these terms for us. And they're a great place for us to actually understand the perfection of God. Because our limitedness is outweighed by his limitlessness. And the cross is the place for all our moral failings and our needs. And God wants to shine and prosper and not to harm us and give us a hope and a future. And so I think I look back and go... that Bible verse that says those who lose their life will find it. That was the truth for me. I lost everything I thought was success..to only understand more what was honestly success in the first place. So I'm going to ask that question next. Ladies... what is success to you and how is it like morphed and changed and connected to your changing definition of failure?

TRACY:

I felt success has been so slippery of a term for so many years, and part of my circle in terms of business and this idea of personal development and things that can come. You can have a lot of voices in our world that say, this is what success looks like, this is what success looks like. And our goal is that, again, back to what's that unconscious self betrayal like, is that actually what success is? And so I've wrestled with that and I enjoy wrestling. So that's not a negative thing necessarily. But with God what is success. And I've really come to the place and I've really appreciated the question to take the time to just name it really clearly in that context of success, because success for me is to live in love, be very aware of the presence of God and bring his presence close to precious hearts. That's part of what I really believe is on my heart. And that's back to that love in the marketplace-- in part two. And I actually have a little scripture quote on my office wall as a reminder and it's from revelation 12 nine /eight in the New Living. And it actually says, don't just pretend to love others, actually love them. And it's that actually love them that made me put it up on the wall, because you can do it well and people will feel, you know, you've cared for the situation, but you can get off the phone or whatever the equivalent is.

And in that heart, that thing in you going, is that really love? Like, is that actually love that is emanating? Is that what I'm feeling within there? And then for a lot of years, just even the like First Corinthians 13 says, without love you accomplish nothing. John 15 Jesus says, apart from me, you can do nothing. And that came like in my parenting years when everything is so busy in that kind of way. And I remember thinking, okay, do this with love because I am too flippin busy to do all of this and have it accomplish nothing. So leaning into accomplishing things by doing in love. So that becomes increasingly more of my measure. Like am I doing preparation for this podcast... Am I.. is it a project... or am I doing this with love? Am I whatever you want to do? Customer service, any of those places? Is this being done in love? Which brings back to that comment. Am I being led by love or driven by fear? Is this love ?

VAL:

That's really good because I think you're using what you already have and you're just put you're putting that into it. I think of all the years we did sports teams with my kids and like all the hours, and I didn't take full advantage of that. I just kind of did that. But if I had infused, you know, some love into that, I know this is getting off success, but I hear what you're saying. Yeah.

TRACY:

Well, the he said, there's a song that I love, Danny Gokey, but it all comes down to this love God and love people. Yeah. And the simplicity of that helps guide it for me.

VAL:

Well, my answer, I'm sure that this is true for all of us to some degree, but I'm just speaking for myself. I probably hold some ideas of success that, you know, are..are lies aren't actually true measures of success when you consider the big picture life and death, the Great Commission, what Jesus thought was success. I really value education and intellect, and I connect those things with success. I would connect wealth and expensive houses and cars and loads of tropical vacations with success. Yeah. And I guess when I look back then what I mentioned as regrets or failures, I'm seeing that I did mention regretting, you know, not getting more education and not putting more money away. So these sort of line up, my failures and my successes are lining up. I don't know if our listeners want to kind of think through that to, you know, your areas that you think that you're failing in, that actually is going to show you what you consider success as well.

CATHERINE:

Yeah, SOOO GOOD.

SUE:

I love the reference of, success versus regret. Right. Like that's when I was 14 I came up. Well now God planted in me my life motto which is make the most of today and you won't regret yesterday tomorrow. And now you fill in your idea of success is how you make the most of today really. So there's still a lot of wiggle room in there for you to personalize that and what it means for you. But it's, it's a great truth if you think that through make the most of today and you won't regret yesterday tomorrow.

VAL:

I guess what I do think of the actual truth of what I think success is like, what would be written on my tombstone. You know, I would love for it to say she was a resting place. That's what I see is success for myself. CATHERINE:

I love that. That's beautiful. So when we define success, it's about really thinking about what we value versus living out of really our basement brain of what we've learned was valuable or celebrated by the people around us family, culture, whatever. Right. So this deconstructing where we actually like purposefully go, hmm-what is this really, God? That's life giving. And that's why my failing actually led to freedom. I had to think about what really was success to God. And, it's almost like if we think that success is the achievement of some goal, it's elusive and it's always like, ahead of us. But can we actually be successful every moment of every day? And I think that's where each of you are defining, like what you're valuing. And we can actually be successful. So the definition that God gave me is success is obedience. Just stay close to me, in step with me. So back to like rest and why I couldn't rest if I could stay close to Him in His presence, I could listen to his heartbeat. I could listen to His truth. That was success.

Have I been obedient to what he's calling me. Not what everybody else is saying, not what everybody else is thinking, not what the expectations are, not what I want to get ahead of in life. Right. So if we look at, the Hebrews Hall of Fame, they weren't success stories by any means from the world's perspective. But God like Jesus, He's that upside down, right? The world view of success is top of the game, and the Bible view is whether you're at the top or the bottom, you can all be successful. Right? You can all be growing. Gods cheering us on to step out versus staying safe in what we thought kept us safe. He is our safety, right? That's where we have to lean into his forgiveness versus guilt and condemnation and His restoration, which is His gentle, revealing and leaning us into dependance.

And so it's so beautiful, like we aren't actually NOT made to fail. And one day we won't. Until then, the truth is, we're not meant to carry any of the brokenness of this fragmented world and any of our mistakes. All of us need to keep short pain record books, and the cross is meant to be a transfusion of His truth, His perspective. And so it's so beautiful that we can lean into that. So I am excited to offer you a challenge, listeners.

SUE:

Okay.

CATHERINE:

Your.. your challenge this week is to puzzle. We want you to puzzle about what success and failure means to you. Think about what comes to mind when you think of success. What comes to mind when you think of failure and then lean in and say, how does that align? How does that align with what you classify as a success or failure? Because we can have victory when we know what to value and align ourselves with truth..truth. So let's conclude this episode.

VAL:

It's a great it's a great challenge. Awesome. Thanks, Catherine.

CATHERINE:

Can't wait and message us. We'd love to hear from you listeners. Love to hear what's going on for you. And I'm going to pass it to Tracy now that's going to tell us about our next episode.

TRACY:

Yeah, I'm glad I remembered. I almost forgot that was coming. Was it a failure or a mistake? I'm not sure it was. It wasn't a mistake. Yeah. Our next episode, and it feeds again off of all of these conversations. The puzzle piece we're going to pick up is around play. But more specifically, the question is, why is it so hard to live playfully-- not just play-- but live playfully? And I'm actually going to leave a question, another question with you listeners that we'll revisit for your thought is do you consider yourself a playful person?

Till next time. BYE!