Episode 3 - The Messy Gift of Grief

Transcript

Sue - 0:00

Hello, hello, I'm Sue mother of two fabulous adult creatives, a professional communicator and an Enneagram. Two if that means anything to you out there. Communication is not only my profession, but my passion and its many forms, writing, teaching, design, public speaking, and serving in Guatemala, all of which allow me to live out my deep love for connecting with people. They supply the rich flavors of my life. And today, I'm with three new flavors in my life. You have met them before. But how are you guys doing today? Good.

Val - 0:37

Yeah. Ready to talk about a hard subject?

Catherine 0:42

Right, thankful.

Sue - 0:44

So I have Katherine and Tracy and Val with me. And yeah, the topic that we're going to be diving into is grief, and what I'm calling the messy gift of grief. And I want to say that, before we really get deep into it, I have grieved a lot in my life, enough that even to starting the conversation brings tears to my eyes. My grief is still very real to me, even though it isn't on the surface of my day to day life. I enter into it easily because grief never really leaves us does it. I've experienced the tragic drowning of my little brother when I was six, my parents subsequent divorce, the extended illness and death of my mother from ALS, the sudden loss of my father from a massive heart attack, my own divorce after 26 years of marriage. And then five years ago, the suicide of my fiancee, and of course, any number of trials and challenges that accompany those losses and life changes. Now, I'm not one to compare grief and losses. And when you're in the midst of it, your grief is the worst grief. I don't give you that list of things that have happened to me to set me up as having suffered more than anybody else. It's just not true. It is simply to say that I have experienced enough grief, to have spent a fair bit of time thinking about it, processing it, trying to do it. Well, whatever that means. And I've come to see that grieving is integral to a full life. It's not a path of learning that I ever would have chosen, who would. But it has been rich and invaluable. And I would not trade who I am as a result of my grief experiences for anything. If only there was another way to be here. But here's where I am. It's the I'm I'm no stranger to hiding at home during the day, unable to face the real world outside my door. Because the real world inside is a black hole. And I've certainly spent my share of nights lying alone in the dark after all my loved ones have gone home, wrestling, crying, arguing and raging in the face of grief. And eventually falling asleep curled up in the lap of my father. Albeit reluctantly, I've come to see that when I sit in and even embrace griefs, layers of discomfort in the loving company of God. I get emptied out and become more available, have more space to receive more of him. Again, it's not an easy path, but any of us would rush to navigate. I can't tell you how many times I've ranted to the sky. I don't know how to do this. And I don't want to know. But grief has a rare beauty all its own. And if you travel it with God, and the people he's put around you, it leads you to places that the faint of heart never get to experience. Ultimately, our God is a God of redemption. And I'm convinced he delights in redeeming our pain. It's a both and world. And maybe I'm giving away the answer to the question. But I'm in for all of it. And I hope you're interested in coming along. So I asked you listeners and friends in this room. When you hear the word grief, what is the first thing that comes to mind

Tracy - 4:37

That .... that silence doesn't have words. It's not the word I had but that space and it probably connects to the word because other than ug when you think about grief, the word that came to mind was cavern and grief. I see like this underground cavern, and kind of an under ground ocean is in there too. And I've said when you have experienced grief, and sometimes this is permission because people think grief, they think really big grief. But there's all kinds of little tiny griefs. And any grief touches into all of that grief because grief. I see like that underground cavern and the waters. And so it just you can't package it up and say this is my grief from my dad, this is my grief over something happening that doesn't have death. It just all mingles together. But I also love. And I had not thought of this. I've certainly found God in the grief, I have lost and wouldn't trade it. And I remember the moment when I said, I wouldn't. I'm closer to my father because I've lost my dad. When my world shattered, but what I loved and what you said in context of that word cavern, is because he fills the Spirit of God, you know, meets us and fills us in those hollow places, too. So yeah, my words grief from grief is cavern, and dog and duck, and,

Sue - 6:26

and silence

Tracy - 6:27

Silence

Val - 6:30

Yeah, it's interesting how we were all just like, silent. No, that's not what we planned. We are, it's almost just too, it's too big. And, yeah, it just sort of struck me how it just kind of left us, you know, in that place. And when you said cavern, I guess my word is very similar, like bottomless, like just the same type of feel. It overtakes you, you know, overtaking everything else, like a sadness that just overtakes very similar idea.

Tracy - 7:08

And the silence, I mean, this is just my heart as we do this listener, right. Our set silence was to hold space for you. Because it's not easy, and there aren't easy answers.

Val - 7:28

I was thinking, Oh, this is a podcast, we should probably say something now. Right. But I love that we held space for that unintentionally, unplanned, because it needs to be held.

Sue - 7:39

It's not the sort of thing you dive into. Its you wade into it. Right. And I'm happy to do that. Yeah, Catherine.

Val - 7:53

For the listeners, Catherine is tearing up. Space.

Sue 7:56

Yeah

Catherine - 7:58

it's interesting, because as you were sharing, I saw connected with what you were saying. And then the silence, I almost feel like I can't speak. Like, I've lost my voice. And I think that that is so connected, like, and my word is lost. Because many, many of us feel lost. Because a lot of times people use the word untethered. Like it just don't feel like I know where my connection is anymore. Right. And so, yeah, I just feel that like, in all of these journeys, where there's been this, like disconnect, sometimes from who we are, sometimes from, who other people are, and sometimes even with, who we see God as rain, and so I'm just really overtaken by the messiness of it

Sue - 8:49

It is, it's, it's incredibly messy. And I think one of the things that the silence speaks to is, you know, there are layers to grief, there's our own loss like the person we've lost or the the job we've lost, or we you know, there are all kinds of things that we we grieve it's, it's not always death can be the death of something. That so there's the loss itself, and then there is that disconnect with from other people. That silence is someone we often don't know how to respond to somebody who's going through grief. We don't know what to ask for, and we don't know what to offer. Right? And that adds a whole other layer of isolation and loneliness. And, you know, you you want to feel you want to live and you don't know how and people don't know how to approach you or what to offer. It's so uncomfortable. And...

Val - 9:54

Isn't that interesting? Like we almost didn't know how to enter into the silence today. Yeah, and People don't know how to enter into that silence when we're grieving either. That's a comment. You hear from so many people like I, I lost so many friends during this because they just didn't come around me because I don't think they knew how.

Sue - 10:12

Right

Val - 10:13

Right!

Sue - 10:14

Yeah.

Catherine - 10:15

Yeah. I think too, when you shared, I just felt like I wanted to hold space for everything she had walked through. So how do we just move on? Right? I just felt this like, desire to hold space, because that's a lot.

Tracy - 10:30

And the sound of silence is also really, really loud. Really, really?

Catherine - 10:38

Yeah.

Tracy - 10:38

Loud.

Sue - 10:39

I felt that when it was quiet.

Tracy - 10:40

And I think that might even be part of that cavern. Because when you sit in those places, it echoes. And sometimes the echoing is just your Why. Why? How. So, I think that that's what I feel even in that, like, if a listener is sitting there and not feeling silent within them. They're feeling the screaming within. Because like you said, every way of grief is valid. And it never fits are pretty little patterns of step one. Step two, it's messy.

Sue - 11:21

Oh, and it changes. Of course, like of course it changes. And I think we've all probably heard the stages of grief and all that sort of thing, the anger but, but I mean, I know for for me. First, you've got to get through just the shock and the loss. And the and I did not some of the things that we're going to talk about today, some of the things that holiday even offer, I was not ready to hear, I would have probably slammed the door in the face of someone who tried to say, and offer solutions to soon, you know that sometimes silence and holding space is the very best thing you can do, which is leads right into, you know, one of the things I really want to talk about, because I think the way we handle grief, both for ourselves, and for people that we love or encounter is so much a part of helping the grief process. So I wonder if you can think of a time when you were grieving and something that somebody did for you. That was profoundly helpful, where you just went, Wow, that I feel better or not quite so bad. Can you think of anything that somebody's helped you through, helped you with how they did it?

Val - 12:40

Well, mine's really simple. Let's go, I think of when my dad passed away, I got a meal given to me very early on. And it was a good friend who made it, it was a vegetarian curry with chickpeas. And it was really bright and colorful. And it was a cold damp day. And I just remember eating this meal. And I remember it tasted so good and spicy. And like, I just couldn't remember it going into my body. And I felt like I was ingesting, like someone else's love and nourishment. It's so simple. And that's I guess, why do we do the meal trains when people are grieving, but, but I just recall that meal, and just the way that it made me feel even just looking at it. And it's a combination of everything, right? Not just food, like someone loved me when they made that. They put aside their busy schedule to make that for me. And I ingested that. And yeah, I know, that's a simple example. But I found ...

Tracy - 13:51

They ingested the love ...

Val - 13:51

Right

Tracy - 13:55

Oh my gosh, I can't turn the pages to write it down. That is so beautiful.

Val - 13:58

Yeah, I ingested

Tracy - 13:59

and simple ... I can come off of that one if I may, like... I have one that's really practical, and one that's a whole lot deeper. But those little things when I lost my dad, I was 33. I was child of their golden years. So he was 47 when I was born. And I had a really dear friend who came either to the funeral of visitation, but she gifted me with a journal. And she had lost as well in her life. And I have returned to that again, and again. It was set apart from any of my other journals where I could come on a birthday card on the anniversary of his passing and just even preserve the memories to move forward. And so like when we receive it also equips us in a way because I've gifted to the right person because it's not always going to be the right person. But I've gifted journals to people and just said, you know, here, you know, just even this fall. So thank you Lisa, she hears this or when she hears this. The other one I thought I really heard when you were saying about too soon, I wrote down that word too soon. Because when I lost my dad, my husband is high physical touch as a love language, I am low physical touch. And when I lost my dad, I couldn't let my husband hold me. Like, in my grief, in my sorrow, it was so significant that it was 11 months after my dad passed away, that I could even turn to Him. And it was in the night, and I just remember turning. And, but But what I really, really received in that because I mean, my world shattered. It just it was a shattering. Different losses have been different things. But that's the word that connected with that one. But what I really reflect on and really received is that as hard as it was for him, because he would want to be held, he wanted more than anything to comfort me. And he didn't. And that in itself was the gift because he respected me enough, loved me enough to give me what I needed, not what he thought should be done. And I think that brings us right back to that holding space. Because we are to meet people where they are. And it's not just, you know, coming and sitting alongside. We don't have to have an answer. Right. Right. Like I find the simplest thing to just say, my heart is with you. My heart is with you. And and that's only one stage within it. But I was so thankful. Thank you, Michael.

Catherine - 16:56

Wow, I'm really connecting with like everything you said, Tracy, about responding like to what you actually needed, right? Because a lot of times, I think that's the messiness of people try to respond to you the way they think that they should. And so that really leads into my story. So I think in the other episode, I was sharing that something traumatic happened in my 20s. And in my 20s, I was devastated. My husband laughed, and in the middle of the night, and I reached out to someone, and they couldn't, they couldn't respond. And so I felt more lost and more alone. But the second person I had the heart to reach out to you came and sat with me in the middle of the night, and let me cry, and sat beside me. So you know, just just the being with the gift of that presence and knowing what I needed empathy in their expression, listening, if I wanted to talk quiet if I wanted to be quiet. And along the same lines, a person who said you can call me even in the middle of the night, right like that, like, even if you're up in the middle of night, so profound, so profound.

Val - 18:05

I guess it takes courage to step into that silence to write for, for us as not the non Griever. Because because there's something that holds you back from from doing that. And that's fear.

Catherine - 18:18

It is

Val - 18:18

right

Catherine - 18:19

100% ... Yeah

Sue - 18:20

I think we're so groomed to fix things. I mean, I know they say typically that men are the fixers and women don't need things fixed. I don't really subscribe to that. I think we want to fix things, I think we want to make them better. And if I can't say just the right thing, to make you feel better than I am uncomfortable with your grief. And that it just it just becomes more and more uncomfortable, like all the way around. And yet when I think of the things that people said or did for me, and I hear, like each of you, none of the things that comforted you were words. Right? It was a resonance it was presence or it was Yeah, yeah, it was a thoughtful like we all need to eat we and especially when you're grieving and not sleeping well and under that kind of stress. I mean food there's a reason why through the years the tradition has been take food, tuna casserole, you know, whatever it is, or feed my husband so I appreciate it and food and my kids. My little kids had fun. Yeah, feed the visitors that are dropping by to see me you know, whatever. And give me a place to put my feelings down. I mean, a journal I'm gonna remember that when that is such a beautiful, beautiful idea and be with me, Catherine you shared like just, these are simple things. We don't need to have words and and I mean when I did ask a couple of friends who I love and walks We live with and, and the one woman wrote back almost right away and said, I loved it when somebody said, You know what, this sucks? Yeah. Just acknowledge him. Knowledge that it's, there's nothing to say about this other than Yeah, I get it like I'm totally with you in the, in the EQ, you know. And connecting with the, the need and the heart and the loss is so it's so important because it's it's validating I, one of my, in this same group, when I asked this, one woman said, The worst thing you can do is say, well, at least it's not

Catherine - 20:42

Absolutely, yeah, completely.

Sue - 20:44

Right. And yet we stretch ourselves, we reach for things to say that. For our own comfort ...

Val - 20:53

It's for our own comfort. Yeah, these things are for ourselves to help ourselves deal with what they're dealing with, right. But I love I love that. And I've tried that more recently is just because I am a fixer. And I, you know, I want to put out ideas, what can I do? What can how can we fix this, but instead agreeing that this sucks? And also like, what can I do for you? You know, those two questions sort of my new, you know, giving space strategy?

Sue - 21:26

Absolutely.

Catherine - 21:27

I have the awesome privilege of being part of the trauma healing Institute as a master facilitator, and actually, one of the big components is helping people understand what is a good listener? Because biggest piece of getting the pain out is actually being heard. Right? So if you can have that space, like I don't actually have to have another answer. I don't actually have to think of the next thing. I can literally just say, you know, what happened? How are you feeling? Right? Like them?

Val - 22:01

Well, and how sweet that Tracy's husband gave up sort of himself, and his desires to comfort and make it better and gave her that space

Tracy = 22:11

by not comforting

Val - 22:12

by not doing what he thought he felt.

Sue - 22:14

Yeah, right.

Catherine - 22:15

On your timeline

Tracy - 22:17

On my timeline.

Sue - 22:19

Well, in timeline is such a fickle thing in grief to like that in itself, that it's, what do they say it's not up into the right. It's not a straight line, it's all over the place. And I can be great for months, and then have a day where I remember any one of the you know, traumatic experiences I've gone through and it can crash me and one of the most beautiful things is having a friend who will receive that and say, Ah, it's a it's a Marcel de, the name of my fiance help you have perspective. Yes. And just give you again, it's it's space. And when I was going through the very thick of it, as well, I would have a day where I would say I don't want to talk about it today. Today, let's pretend it didn't happen. And be able to do that with me is it's huge. It's being responsive to the moment because the moment changes in grief, right?

Tracy - 23:11

I had, like the time but the stages of grief. Like I didn't deal. The only time I addressed anger was I was angry at myself for not getting over it sooner. Like I thought okay, well can up to a year Why am I not over this now, let's get on. But I also had wisdom that kept me anchored from a beautiful friend, and who had had had walked loss and grief. And it doesn't necessarily fit this timelines. But just she said, Tracy, the first year is just a year of grief. And the second is a year of adjusting like and it was just that permission when my head we go okay, like why am I not further along these little check marks of grief, you know, was that and I've shared that like so what we receive in our grief again, whether it's a book, whether it's making meals, I received that and how many times have I said to someone, it's okay like she said, I don't even you know planned for the next in a sense within that two year window. And we've lost culturally mourning seasons of mourning seasons of lament like we it's that whole thing about not being comfortable. And I think somewhere in here, like we inherently know that grief is a sacred space. But we are uncomfortable with it.

Catherine - 24:33

I think we try to rush into like the good emotions and think that grief is a bad emotion and I'm not an air quotes. Listener there are air quotes around right but like you know, we're I'm a Christian so I should just be happy and I love world is broken. So I should just forgive and actually like, allow myself to heal and reveal and feel and allow God to do layers like layers upon layers instead of rushing like, how do I jump to the end of this journey so I can move forward versus what are all the things that you're pulling out in this process God, like you were saying, Val, mighty comforter, right, like ...

Tracy - 25:15

and we've been talking mostly in the context of loss in a death. But when you just said about that grief, like, I think the loss of a friendship, like those goes so deep, but it can be it. It's not just death. No, the death of it can be the death of hope, the diary of a dream. Exactly. And we also need to give even dreams. This is just really recently, yeah, but we have to give ourselves permission to mourn what we thought a, b, or c would be like, we have to, and we do kind of can go Oh, no, of that's just, you know, but we push on, but no stopping to mourn. What wasn't? ... And trusting that maybe you know, all things in all things. Not all things are good.

Catherine - 26:09

Right?

Tracy - 26:10

But can we find good, excellent, find good. And that scripture that says, I would have lost heart, if I did not believe I would see the goodness of the Lord, in the land of the living. And sometimes we also just need to look or like you said, have a friend who helps point us out, because we can't even see because we're so in the middle of whatever, and helps us name where we are.

Sue - 26:34

Yeah ... And I think there really is a time for that hiding away. And just letting yourself feel all those shock and grief and agony of it. If you know, especially in the case of a of a death. But I've walked through extended illness with friends to where that's a grieving process, am I going to be myself again? Am I going to have my life again, and so extended grieving with someone where you, you do you want to encourage but you don't want your encouragement to become negating of where they're at. Like, you never want to minimize the this Sox part. Especially when you don't know what the future is going to be. And it could get worse before it gets better. You know? Yeah, it really is a it is sensitive. And sometimes I think we are in way too much of a rush. To to get to the positive side, which is, which is why I keep coming back to grief is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for everybody. But if we can, if we can stop calling it bad or negative, I think that helps us get to a place where it's like, okay, it's uncomfortable. But what can I bring to it? What can I bring to the person? What can how can I approach this? My therapist uses the term reframe, how can I reframe grief so that it's not this scary, negative abyss, which it is what we move through it, we do move through it, there is another side and I think that's we can lose sight of the fact that it passes just as much as Joy does. One of the things that I find with myself with grief nowadays, and joy is I grab both of them harder. I hold them both more so because I've come to recognize and I hate how trite it sounds, but it will pass this too shall pass the joy and sorrow, the grieving and the celebration, so live it fully even the grief, feel it, you know, but if we if we only lived in the high notes, would we feel them the same way? Would we enjoy them the same way? You know, God takes us into places of suffering. And ...

Tracy - 29:16

Someone once said, and Nicole our producer is a photographer, and they said photography is a whole different thing when you can do the photography, when it's wet, like that rain can do the grief and they can get a nice picture. But the the intensity of the colors and the hues that get brought out. That is what grief can also bring. Like you said that appreciation of the joy, the appreciation of the moments and and really cherishing the moments that we have that comes with an it too.

Sue - 29:54

You guys have any other thoughts on why God allows suffering I mean We've talked about worrying and anxiety. We've got other topics coming up. But, you know, life isn't all roses. And yet we're Christians. Wasn't it supposed to be all roses? She said sarcastically. But there is suffering in our lives and, and God allows it. What is that about?

Val - 30:24

I think, you know, like, I think there's two prongs to this, you know, like, there is suffering, like because of the sinful nature. So God didn't create sin, so there isn't like, and we know that, like, Jesus says, your life is going to be hard, like, there's going to be trouble. In fact, I mean, he suffered quite a bit, right. And so we know we're gonna suffer, and we know they're suffering. But then God allows us to suffer particular sufferings. So I guess my thought is more why does he more than Why does He allow suffering? It's, why does He allow me to suffer these particular sufferings? And that almost makes me feel better sometimes, because I trust him. And I know that he knows what I need. And he is planning to do a work in me, and maybe his allowing this particular suffering for a reason only he knows. And it's complicated. I mean, this is something that people have debating been debating for centuries, right? Like, it's a tough question. But the fact of the matter is, he could, he could allow you to have no suffering. But he does, he allows you to have particular sufferings. But he also says, I will be there in those sufferings, I will supply what you need to get through them, it is still all under his hand and under his control.

Sue - 32:10

I love that emphasis on particular suffering. Because that means in my language, that means there's a particular gift that comes out of that particular suffering or a particular growth or a particular I hesitate to use, like too flowery of language, but but there's a benefit. There is something that we gain.

Val - 32:35

It's all in his plan. He's working it all together for our good.

Sue - 32:38

Amen. Yeah. Yeah.

Val - 32:41

Yeah

Catherine - 32:41

I was I was literally just thinking of that verse. Right? I was thinking of that verse because of that whole, like, how is it working for good, but I was still mulling over the like joy and sorrow, which is connected to my fault right now. But in the middle of that, sometimes it's really hard to actually look for the joy. And I know that it can feel really dark. So if we have a listener that's like, I just feel the dark, I'm having a really hard time looking for any joy. I, I literally had to actually make a joy jar, and say, Is there not something good still, because all I can see is this dark? And I literally started picking up little, like objects or snapshots or pictures of like, well, that is still beautiful, because it's, it's, it's that lostness you can be encompassed in the cavern. So how do you actually get out of that? And that learning and I guess that's what we're talking about is growth, that learning to like, Okay, how do I actually try to look for something that's still good? Because everything feels bad right now was where I started to understand God, there's something that you're growing. And if I'm on the lookout with you, there's something more you want to actually place in me another tool another understanding another piece of comfort I can give somebody else which allow me to pivot past the like, I can only see dark, and I'm trying to find joy to although there's still moments like that. Being able to go what are you growing God? What are you showing me God? Who are you becoming for me, God, like that curiosity, if I can actually flip the switch somehow, maybe physically, but to be curious, like, God, if you're saying you're doing all things for good, you're not like out of control right now and you're not abandoning me. So what is it that you want to put into me? Show me grow me teach me? Right?

Sue - 34:40

Yeah ... absolutely.

Tracy - 34:43

Willing, because we can be quick to try to come out of the dark. But there are diamonds in the dark. Right? There's something about that cavern that also has corridors. That and I think I see those diamonds as those things that are I mean, diamonds are formed under rash. But there are things, those particular sufferings that are working those things in us. But then you made that comment about finding him him meeting in us and I, I just remember hearing a story that was just over the top kind of grief. But this father who had lost wife and five of his seven children, all the caskets on the stage saying, I, it blows my mind, but I sit with this, he said, I am determined. And I don't think the question itself is wrong, but he said, I am determined not to ask why. I'm going to ask Who Who do you God want to be tonight in this particular suffering? Because it can be all kinds of different expressions of who he is. And and you know, I my answer within this came from I just read it recently from Oswald Chambers, a favorite author. And I think we can feel entitled I think perhaps sometimes as Christians we think well why should we be like that whole .... get on ... Yeah ....And I just love the way he said he he said, why shouldn't we go through hard breaks through these doorways God is opening up ways of fellowship with His Son and when I have been cracked open that's often the place or it comes any said practically how do we like how to whereas gift in that wisdom from another really dear friend, my mom is coming up two years since she passed away beautiful 91 Like a just a story of life and faithfulness. But this friend gave me again, such different friend. I got some good friends in my life, thankfully. But she said, when your world shatters, you get to choose what pieces you pick up and take forward with you. And that's, that's one of the gifts in the shattering.

Sue - 37:04

Mm hmm. Beautiful

Tracy - 37:06

It just hurts. But

Sue - 37:08

yeah

Tracy - 37:09

yeah, eyes to see

Sue - 37:12

Yeah, it does hurt.

Val - 37:14

A very mild example. This is is not grievious. But it made me think about grief. When we went to Myrtle Beach, we missed a lot of vacations because of COVID with my kids, and they were just in that stage where we wanted to travel together. And I felt mad, because we missed out on so much. So we're heading out to Myrtle Beach. And I'm so thankful. And we get there and our, our hotel had been hit by a hurricane. And so we had no pools, no hot tubs. And in fact, they were full of like brown water with caution tapes around them well, the entire time. Second day, I catch COVID and felt not great. And my husband caught it two days later. And normally when we're on vacation, and I was just so looking forward to this on the sunshine in the water, and my kids and everything. I normally feel so happy and elated. And in that I feel so loved by God, and so blessed. And I just thought during that vacation. What is this? And I was like, I feel like I didn't feel loved by God, because it was such a contrast, you know? And so I think that, for me was really like, how would I deal with if something really serious happened? How can I believe still, that God loves me? When I feel like he's, you know, able to take this away are able to change the circumstances, right? And so I think that for Christian is the hardest one of the hardest things in grief to really understand, you know, how do we just still really just believe in our spirits that we are loved by Him?

Catherine - 38:55

Yeah

Tracy - 38:56

I think that's beautiful about what what Catherine was saying too, because so often it is attached to circumstances, how we feel is our around our circumstances. And even in those darkest times when we can come back to is there some somewhere? Is there beauty? Is there something where can I find the place to be grateful? What can I be grateful for what can I rest in where can I look back and see where God has delivered me before and stood by my side before and I mean, I've got to say just going back to my story. I now have a slew of places where I can say God was with me. Yes, yeah, I know. I'm standing here today and I'm I'm I don't carry the burden of sadness. I am joyful and optimistic and I love my life and I'm exploring and living full on and that is because God met me in all those places. And I've learned to just rest in that knowing he doesn't change, even if the circumstances do. And he is always there, no matter what we go through. And he is so present in his people. You know, and we, I mean, that's, that's when you're the Griever. Right? He is so present in the people. And if you're the comforter, you are the people, you get to bring God to others, we get to that's, that's our gift. If we can just remember to breathe and let God do the work, you know, just to come and sit and be the presence of God beside somebody or in a meal or, you know, that sort of thing. And so I think that's just so vital to remember that they really, I guess that the gift in grief, that horrible messy gift and grief is when we allow it to draw us closer to him. Through his people.

Catherine - 41:07

I feel like in grief, like it's actually sometimes an undoing of how we see God even. Because many, many people, the shattered pieces, the broken pieces, and yes, we get to choose, but if they think he's the sledgehammer that really pivots, right? Like I've heard people say that use a sledgehammer, he's chiseling these pieces off of you. But he says that he carries her tears and a bottle, that they're sacred, and they're watering and growing something. And so I think through my struggles, it was the undoing of like that he was an angry God. And he was waiting for me to screw up. And those were like consequences for these things. Versus like him saying, Do you know that I'm good? Like that? It's actually good, right? And like more your food for like, your this but like to actually and I think that actually is the pieces that you're saying that I took from those hard circumstances is actually the world's broken, but he is good. And he is with me. Yeah. And he will write like he put something in I think there was a, there was a healing in the world ...

Sue - 42:12

And now you have the gift and ability to stand with others who are broken, because there's going to be brokenness. So we need the people who can stand with the broken like in a real way.

Val - 42:29

Whether we're in this together.

Sue - 42:30

Yeah.

Catherine - 42:31

Yeah.

Sue - 42:33

Yeah, for sure... Oh, you guys, okay. We started with silence. And we said a lot, and I hope for anybody who's out there who might be grieving. Right now we, we feel you, we've all felt it. And we just asked for the presence of God to be with you. We asked for someone or several people to come alongside you. That is our prayer that you would know God in the midst of your grieving.

Val - 43:06

His love ... He loves you. Thanks, Sue, for sharing all of those, you know, vulnerable things with us today.

Sue - 43:17

You're welcome ... I ... It's an honor to get to, you know, I think conversations about grief are one of the best ways.

Val - 43:26

Yes.

Sue - 43:26

To work with grief work with it, not against it kind of thing.

Val - 43:30

Because we know, we're not alone.

Sue - 43:33 Yeah

Tracy - 43:33

... if we can voice it.

Sue - 43:35

Yeah ... Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for the space to do it and for entering in and. And next time. Next time, Tracy is going to take us on another journey. What do you want to leave us with Tracy?

Tracy - 43:51

Well, it can even lead. And this is where the weaving of our conversations has always been so fascinating. Because where we're looking at whether it's grief or something else worry, the unknown illness, just even the mundane day to day, the piece of the puzzle that I'd like to pick up is unfit to leave with you for the for you to consider is in life in whatever the circumstances when it is overwhelming. How do you not quit?

Sue - 44:28

Beautiful. Great. Thank you so much for joining us for this third episode of The puzzlers. And we'll see you next time. We look forward to seeing you then. Bye